The Brighter Side of Education: Research, Innovation & Resources
Hosted by Dr. Lisa Hassler, The Brighter Side of Education: Research, Innovation, & Resources a podcast that offers innovative solutions for education challenges. We bring together research, expert insights, and practical resources to help teachers and parents tackle everything from classroom management to learning differences. Every episode focuses on turning common education challenges into opportunities for growth. Whether you're a teacher looking for fresh ideas or a parents wanting to better support your child's learning, we've got actionable strategies you can use right away.
The podcast's music was created by Brandon Picciolini, her son, from The Lonesome Family Band. You can explore more of his work on Instagram.
The episode explores the science and psychology of math anxiety and features innovative educational approaches aimed at transforming math teaching. With a PhD in Mathematics & Computer Sciences, Dr. Aditya Nagrath shares insights on early intervention, preventive strategies to improve students' confidence, and the importance of viewing math as a language. As the creator and founder of Elephant Learning Mathematics Academy, he's on a mission to empower children with mathematics.
• Discussion on the prevalence and impact of math anxiety • Early intervention strategies in mathematics education • Teaching math as a language to improve understanding • The role of gamification in learning mathematics • Techniques for parents and teachers to recognize and address math anxiety • Overview of Elephant Learning's unique educational approach • Information on resources and courses available for educators and parents
If you have a story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, email me at lisa@drlisahassler.com or visit www.drlisahassler.com. Subscribe, tell a friend, and consider becoming a supporter by clicking the link: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2048018/support.
The music in this podcast was written and performed by Brandon Picciolini of the Lonesome Family Band. Visit and follow him on Instagram.
Welcome to the brighter side of education, research, innovation and resources. I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler, here to enlighten and brighten the classrooms in America through focused conversation on important topics in education. In each episode, I discuss problems we as teachers and parents are facing and what people are doing in their communities to fix it. What are the variables and how can we duplicate it to maximize student outcomes? In today's episode, we're diving deep into the science and psychology of math and exploring innovative solutions that are transforming how we teach mathematics. We'll learn how early intervention and modern approaches are helping students build confidence in mathematical mastery from preschool onward.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
For people with math anxiety, facing numerical tasks isn't just difficult, it's painful. Cognitive scientists at Dartmouth found that in people with high math anxiety, the mere anticipation of doing math led to increased activity in brain regions associated with threat detection and the experience of pain. Evidence suggests about 20 to 25 percent of kids experience moderate to high levels of math anxiety, which persist into adulthood. That has a direct correlation to math achievement. This leads to an avoidance of everyday situations requiring math later in life, including money management and even salary negotiation. What makes this cycle particularly challenging to break is a startling discovery Elementary education students, our future teachers have the highest math anxiety levels of all college majors. This anxiety manifests in subtle ways, like casual comments such as let's put away our math books now and do something fun, which can significantly impact student learning throughout the entire school year.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Now, while math anxiety affects people across all demographics, certain patterns emerge in research. Affects people across all demographics. Certain patterns emerge in research. Gender is a consistent factor, with girls experiencing higher rates of math anxiety than boys, partly due to societal stereotypes that paint math as a masculine domain. However, the strongest predictor isn't gender. It's a student's confidence in their ability to complete math tasks.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Psychologists studying this challenge propose fundamental changes to math education. Pilot studies show promising results when children learn to think like mathematicians, while developing effective study skills and embracing a growth mindset, which is the understanding that mathematical ability can be developed through effort and learning. Now, with strong mathematical foundations, beginning in preschool time is of the essence To explore this further. I'm excited to welcome Dr Aditya Nagrath, computer scientist, mathematician and founder of Elephant Learning Mathematics Academy, as author of the books Rethinking Math Learning and his latest Treating Mathematics Anxiety. His work focuses on transforming mathematics education through gamification and child psychology, with particular attention to helping struggling students catch up. His mission to empower children with mathematics has already reached 175,000 students worldwide and his expertise has been shared across nearly 100 podcasts, dozens of articles and numerous television appearances. Dr Nagrath's vision to change the way the world teaches mathematics is already making waves in education. Welcome, dr Nagrath. It's an honor to have you with us on the show today.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
So you're a doctor in mathematics and computer science. What brought you to study math anxiety and to create Elephant Learning Mathematics Academy eight years ago?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Okay, yeah, great. So we started with creating Elephant Learning, and what it was was that four out of five students start kindergarten unprepared for the kindergarten curriculum. And what that meant was that there was this language gap between what parents think counting to 10 is, and because multiplication is defined as repetitive addition and this student doesn't really get addition quite as yet. And so we started Elephant Learning to try to bridge that gap. And it turns out that early age education researchers sort of already know all the activities that a student should do in order to understand these concepts.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
And as a mathematician, when you look at what these activities are, it's fairly clear that what we're doing is we're getting the student to exhibit the idea and then we're labeling it. So, like it's the same way that they learn the colors, because you can't describe a color to a student, you have to give them the experience of red, blue, green, right? You give them that experience and you're labeling it, and then they infer In the same way, you give them that experience with the quantities and the addition and the subtraction, and now they start to put it together. So now, when you have that concrete representation in the student's mind underneath the written mathematics, then the mathematics they experience in class is actually fun. You're looking at new ways to solve problems you're already familiar with.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Ah, yeah.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
But math teachers are always kind of aware of the fact that 50% of Americans have math anxiety. This started to exhibit in our system, so at that point we'd start to help them and they'd recover. We turned that into a coaching program and wrapped it into a subscription so that every parent could benefit from it, as students may be encountering any discomfort. So we have math coaching videos within our system and parents tell us that now my child loves math class, and that was the goal. Then we wrote it down as a book so that we could let everybody know about it and get it out to teachers and administrators in the schools where we're trying to go next.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
So now you were just talking about four out of five kids in our kindergarten behind in math skills. Can you explain what those specific math skills are that children should have learned by kindergarten?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Counting to 10.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Why are these gaps present and why do you think they have such lasting effects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
The difference in understanding of counting to 10 between most parents and what the school means is counting to 10 is that most parents?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
are good when the child says the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Yes, and the school means can you give me 10 things? And the student is able to slide over 10 things and stop on 10. And so that's demonstrating understanding of the actual quantity 10, because they're quote unquote, producing it to you. They're giving it to you and so if you don't understand the teacher and you're not being held back, you can get into this situation where your understanding of numbers is that of a kindergarten or first grader, but you're in third grade, learning multiplication, right, and it's about the experiences you're getting in the world and the language. And the challenge is is that when you look at the statistics, they've never really been awesome. Right now.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
High school proficiency in mathematics at least the 2019 numbers so it's a pre-pandemic number was 24%, so it was a 76% non-proficiency and that number is going down. So all the news reports are always it's going down, it's going down, it's going down. And again this boils down to do you understand the teacher in the classroom? And when you're talking about the fundamentals, we lose most students at fractions, decimals and percentages, and those are just three different systems of speaking about the same idea. So we're losing them there. But then you add in a variable and this is what I memorized my multiplication tables. But seven times X wasn't on there. And so if you keep adding on complexity to something that someone doesn't understand, they get to a point where they say I'm never going to get this, and then that's complete failure. That's the setting in of the math anxiety. I'm just not going to do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Right, I'm not good at math, and I hear that a lot. I hear in the classroom people would say I'm really good at reading, I'm not really good at math, I don't have a math brain. Or some kids would say, well, I'm not really good at reading, but I'm really good at math. And so at a very young age somehow they start setting into this finite thing I'm either good or I'm bad at. So what age and skill range does elephant learning focus on? Can you walk us through how it works and what makes it different than other math programs?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Well, ok, so like we focus on teaching mathematics as a language we cover from counting through algebra, so like that's the third grade reading equivalent for mathematics. Because when you get to anything that's a financial text, a statistical text, scientific text you're going to face variables, you're going to have equations. So like, if you don't understand algebra and what the goal is of algebra, you're not going to get these other things.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
So you're starting at? Does it start at kindergarten, preschool, Is there?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
an age, yeah, yeah, counting, so like literally counting to five, and it's basically what you would expect it to be. So it's the thing that you would be doing as a parent. Here's three things, right, like can you recognize three? Click on three. How many fingers am I holding up? How many things do I have? Can you give me right? So it's like one to five, five to 10.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
The transition to the teens, which is a big deal because this is the first time a student seeing two characters next to each other, means something more, and it's not uncommon for us to see four-year-olds get into multiplication division. We've seen some get into fractions. They'll just keep going because they don't know this is advanced mathematics. They're curious and they're solving the problems. And then, on the other side, we've seen 12-year-olds coming in testing at the third grade level, catching up to their age, and that parent's telling us they love math class now and they're enjoying, and so this is the main thing.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So the main thing to combat the mathematics anxiety is you have to believe that the student can do it and you have to tell them that you believe they can do it. Doing both out loud causes two commitments to be made. The first is you've made a commitment to the student that I'm going to be here until you do it, and I believe you can do it. But the second is is if they stay with you, then that means that they too believe they can do it. So you've got them right. And then after that, the book talks about a lot of techniques that you can be using to help the students.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Is it a computer based program where someone has to have a desktop, or can you have an app?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So we run in Chrome and Safari. We were basically designed to run everywhere, okay.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
You partnered with Step Up for Students in Florida just recently. I was really excited that it was available for the students through their schools.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Yeah, we've been working with Step Up for almost a year.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
And it's different because it teaches math as a language. Is that where it's so very different?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So we're not trying to do the fluency thing. You're not going to see things where it's like what's five plus four?
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
What's right Like what's three?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
times seven. Like, okay, there's so many things out there and they're free, so if you want them to get speedier, you could get one of those. You can make them do that for 10 minutes a day and they will get better, right? So like we're focusing on the hard part, and then the thing that really sets us apart is that we have these adaptive algorithms that really keep pace with the student at a better rate, and so it's hard to go out there and say, hey, this is a big differentiator, but it's true. And finally, it was created by PhDs in mathematics.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
It wasn't just me, it was another professor in mathematics and our only goal is to ensure that children come out. So like we focused on just the essential topics with the goal of can we just get a student to understand the teacher in the classroom if they want to speak with them? So like, if you have a four-year-old that does get to fractions, decimals and percentages, sure like, maybe they'll get into a gifted, talented program, maybe not, right, they don't have all the pieces necessarily. Like that the school would teach we're not doing time, we're not doing measurements. It's like, if I can teach you fractions, then you can understand measurements, but if you don't understand fractions, then measurements is really hard because it's another abstract topic on top of an abstract topic. And so then this opens the door because, like, theoretically speaking, I could speak with my student about fractions, decimals and percentages. I could take them into the kitchen, I could get measuring tapes and stuff. Or, theoretically, you could put them in Kumon and say could you work with them at that level, while the school works with them at the lower level? It just opens up these options that weren't there before.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
And at least with my child, I see increased curiosity because he's able to read these books, because he's like, oh, I want to be a scientist, right, but he's able to read these books. And that's the thing is that these books have like, oh, could you put a half cup of water right for this experiment? The problem with science is that it's mathematically based. If you can't measure it, then yeah, you don't really have proof that it works. And as soon as you get into measurements, you don't really have proof that it works. And as soon as you get into measurements, you're talking math, you're talking statistics, you're talking are you measuring the right thing? What do the numbers mean?
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
That's why a lot of physicists and mathematics are kind of the same circles. That makes a lot of sense. Does your program support students with disabilities like dyscalculia, speakers of other languages?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
We've seen success with students from all backgrounds and we honor the guarantee, so like if we don't ask the disposition of the student at signup and our coaches are willing to help.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
That's amazing. Your research has been cited by Harvard and Yale. What kind of impact has your program had and what are your goals for the future?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So we've seen over 175,000 students complete our placement exam. That means that they came into the system and they got placed. So we start out if the student's older than five, because if they're under five, mainly, they're typically counting. That's typically where they're going to start, but if they're older than five we got to find their level. So this placement exam was designed to start behind them and catch up.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
The experiences are delivered as a puzzle game, so the idea is like angry birds, but for math, right. So like the characters aren't trying to take away from the puzzle, they're just trying to be the object that you're counting or that's representing what's happening. And it's like think of a basketball hoop. We're like moving it up a foot at a time and then, once the ball's no longer going in, we're like, oh, let's go back down a little bit. So they get the ball in and now we start kind of inching up from there. So it's like these complicated algorithms, because we've got these complicated maps of how do these ideas fit together. Right, you have to learn addition before you learn multiplication. But like we're doing it at a more granular level.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Love it Now. Your recent book Treating Mathematics Anxiety discusses the psychology of math anxiety. What does your research reveal about its causes and effects?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Sure, okay, when you're talking about like, let's just talk about like an AI system because it's fun, right, okay. So they modeled this after what they thought the human brain would look like, but abstractly, like, if you just move up high enough, what it is is a set of inputs, a set of outputs, right, and a function. But then there's also this training function. What happens is you cycle the inputs through the function. The training function starts to alter the function so that the inputs go to the output.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
So a concrete example you have a bunch of images of household items and then the outputs, the name right.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So like oven refrigerator, you get it all to match up and you cycle it through and it keeps training. The function and then the hope is is that, like the continuity of F allows similar inputs to give you similar outputs. So it sees a different oven, it still recognizes it as an oven. You see what I'm saying.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Yes.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Okay, so like if you take this and you philosophically put it back to the human being. There's a whole bunch of different systems, obviously, but the first system, the input system, appears to be your experiences, your five senses, right? So that's coming together and the output would be the meaning that you're adding to that experience. You see an oven.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
you think that's an oven. Yes, it's almost the same thing.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
But here's the difference between us and the AI we assign the meaning, right, we gave it the inputs. We gave it the outputs. We told it to train, okay. So now, when you're looking at the human being and you're looking at something like mathematics or basketball right, any endeavor, karate, piano it boils down to their belief system, boils down to the meanings that they're adding to the events, and that boils down to I can do this or I can't do this. And so the coaching program is you have to believe that the student can do it. And then you have to meet them at their level of understanding, because if you meet them higher, they cease to believe that they can do it, even if you continue to say that you believe they can do it.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
But if you believe they can do it and then meet them at their level of understanding, well, now you can build them up and you can reward them for the success. And exactly what elephant learning was designed to do. We put a one number metric called the elephant age. We graph it. It always moves from bottom left to top right. It was engineered that way because as they close milestones, we average the highest five ages on those milestones.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
And so like guess what After you've got five, it only goes up because as you pass milestones, so like guess what, After you've got five, it only goes up because as you pass milestones can't change the top five, you can only make it larger. The students see that and they see success. And then on top of that it matches. So your six-year-old in the system, your elephant age six, is roughly working on addition, your elephant age nine is working on multiplication division and the parent, the student, see the age matches the content and the progress. And the parent, the student, see the age matches the content and the progress. And as they see that progress they continue to believe they can do it. And then mathematics anxiety is never a thing they can do it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
So what do you mean by elephant age?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
So that's the average age that a student outside of the system is doing the same mathematics as your student. Okay, so now you can see that progress and so that's what I mean it's like that six-year-old is working on addition, that nine-year-old is working on multiplication at elephant age, right, so like you can see your student moving and it matches what you kind of expect from the real world.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Oh, I like that. How can parents and teachers recognize signs of math anxiety, and what kind of strategies can you recommend?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
If your student has math anxiety, they're typically avoidant, don't want to do homework. One of the main things that you could tell someone is like this basketball analogy so math and basketball are similar. That, like when the ball goes in the hoop, everyone can see it. So like the ball goes in the hoop in math, someone can look and they can see it. If it doesn't go in, they know it and same right. Yeah, so like where they're not the same and where they're the same. There's a lot of different things that, like from a coaching perspective, you can do to help your student. For example, one place where they're not the same is that there is no way for the coach to shoot for the student.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Right, we can give them pointers, but it's always the student shooting. Well, in math that's not always true. And here's the thing. If I go back to basketball and I think, like if there was some way that the coach could shoot somehow for the player, if they could just affect the trajectory of the ball in any way, well, that basketball player would not believe that they could play basketball. They believe that the coach could play basketball pretty well.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
They're like I can't do it by myself. I can do it maybe with help, but not independently.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
That's right and so like this is, then one of those things is like you got to let the student take authentic shots. They have to believe they can do it. If you're always stepping in with the procedure, if you're always stepping in with an answer, if you're always stepping well, in that case they're going to believe they need that right. It's true.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Now I'm not saying it's harmful to step in every now and then with the procedure. I'm saying if you always do it, then that's what they're going to believe. Right Now we recommend that you talk with the student. You find out what is the misunderstanding. But then the techniques talked about in our book. Those are mainly emotional techniques, Like my students blowing up. What should I do? Okay, well, if they were blowing up on the basketball court, I might say let's take a break, let's go get some Gatorade, put some sugar and water in you, let's see if we get you hydrated and like thinking again, do you calm down? And then something called the gray rock. You just don't respond to it at all, you show no emotion, they flip out and you're like next shot, All right, you got this. And then there's a lot of techniques for validating emotions and, theoretically speaking, if you can get them to say the emotion out loud, they could recognize it. Now they've freed themselves. And that is then what we mean by empowering children with mathematics. That's our mission.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
And you developed a course to complement your book on math anxiety. Can you talk about who the course is designed for and what the participants can expect to learn?
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Sure, so this is for everyone. It's just a introductory course. It's about 30 minutes of video with some exercises. We're going to put together a more comprehensive course for specifically teachers for professional development.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
Yay, well, I joined the course and I went through it, and so I've heard your basketball analogies before, but I love how you bring those two together. Thank you so much for sharing your insights on math anxiety and your vision for transforming mathematics education.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, if you want to learn more about elephant learning, why don't you come to elephantlearningcom? The book's on there too, but you can find the book on Amazon. It's probably better from Amazon.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
But if you buy it from our, website.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
I'll probably sign it. It'll probably come out of this office here.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
All right, well, thanks so much.
Dr. Aditya Nagrath:
Thank you.
Dr. Lisa Hassler:
If you know a student, parent or teacher struggling with math anxiety, share this episode with them. Your simple act of sharing could be the first step towards transforming someone's relationship with mathematics. If you have a story about what's working in your schools that you'd like to share, you can email me at lisa at drlisahasslercom, or visit my website at wwwdrlisahasslercom and send me a message. If you like this podcast, subscribe and tell a friend. The more people that know, the bigger impact it will have. And if you find value to the content in this podcast, consider becoming a supporter by clicking on the supporter link in the show notes. It is the mission of this podcast to shine light on the good in education so that it spreads, affecting positive change. So let's keep working together to find solutions that focus on our children's success.
